Patterns without stitch counts

Hi, I’ve now bought three patterns—they’re all really nice and include everything I need: yarn, needle sizes, etc. But I don’t have a live model to measure against (it’s a gift). I can’t make these items because there isn’t a single stitch count listed. I don’t need to buy a pattern that explains how to do the pattern or a double crochet or… I bought the patterns to make the item. As I’ve explained before, I can’t look at the pattern in advance—I’m buying it blindly—and I find that very frustrating.  If I do end up making the project—and that’s the intellectual property of the creators—and there’s all this fuss about rights and publication. Guys, you made it or you didn’t—what are you selling us here? And what am I supposed to do now with the patterns I bought, printed out, and examined very closely to try to figure out how to make it?

Hello Stricklady,
I’m sorry that this has upset you. I’ll try to help mediate.
Please tell me which seller the pattern(s) in question are from. Have you already tried contacting the seller(s) by email, private message, or perhaps even by phone? If not, I can contact the seller for you so that you can get the information you need.
I’m sure we can find a good compromise.
 

No, I haven’t. I’ve already had bad experiences with that. The sellers should rework the patterns into proper instructions and send a complete sample of each one. I don’t know whether you have access to the patterns.  

Please send me a private message with the name(s) of the seller(s) so I can request the information for you.

Hi Stricklady,
I’ve reached out to the sellers you mentioned via private message and asked them to get in touch with you—either via private message or here in this thread. Good luck!

Thank you :-)))))

Hi Stricklady…

well, I’m guessing we’re talking about clothing here… the pattern writers want the clothes to fit the person, after all—and that’s especially difficult with children’s fashion, because take three kids—all three are exactly 1 m tall, but their builds are different: one child is incredibly slender, another is average, and the third might have a little belly. No designer can anticipate that.

On top of that, there’s also the tension with which someone crochets or knits, or the fact that someone might use a different type of yarn than the designer—maybe even a different crochet hook size. And then what?

There are simply too many variables to consider, and you just can’t calculate them, so the best method is to measure.

To stick with my examples:

all three children need the same dress length, but each child needs a different width—how can you define that by stitch count? That doesn’t

work. Crochet tension—even if all crocheters use the same hook and yarn, I’d bet that if they all crochet the same number of stitches, you’ll end up with a different measurement for each one. Depending on the project, this can easily result in a difference of 5–10 cm; 100 stitches by 100 stitches won’t be the same size for everyone… and especially with clothing, 3 cm more or less can ruin days of work.

Using different yarns… that’s the next problem… 100 stitches crocheted with Catania yarn will be a different size than 100 stitches crocheted with Bravo yarn.

In other words, if designers write their patterns in terms of stitch counts, they’ll run into a problem, and no one will be able to make sense of it—leading to major disappointment because nothing fits. That’s why it’s absolutely right that most people recommend taking measurements.

But since you don’t have a model to measure, you need to know what size you want to crochet. There are many size charts online, and even there you’ll see that they all have slight variations. But that would give you a general idea regarding sleeve length, bust circumference, waist circumference, etc.

Please ask that person or someone close to them to measure them or provide their clothing size. Then use that information to find the right size or consult the size charts, and jot down the values you need from 3–4 different charts… then take the average of those values… and you’re ready to go. Additionally, it would of course be helpful to know the build of the person you’re crocheting for. That way, you can estimate whether you might want to crochet it slightly narrower or wider.

My conclusion—and I think many would agree—is that a pattern with measurements in centimeters is much more useful than one with stitch counts, at least when it comes to items that need to “fit” properly, like clothing.

 

Hello Nicole from berli Design and others

When I buy a pattern, I want at least an approximate stitch count and gauge information. Of course, it always depends on the yarn and needles.
If I’m spending money on it, that information definitely has to be included for me. Whether I knit tightly or loosely is secondary to me. I need some guidelines to go by.
Why should I first have to search online somewhere for a size chart? I might as well just look for a different pattern.
If I’m knitting or crocheting something and it’s meant to be a gift, I can hardly say, “Just measure yourself.”
For me, a pattern like that would be out of the question, and I wouldn’t buy another one. Especially since there is such a large selection. It’s different for decorative items.
 

I have to agree with Hilde. For me, stitch counts are an absolute must. That’s why it’s also very important to work with a gauge swatch. Those have always been used, and for good reason. If my gauge doesn’t match the designer’s specifications, then I just have to recalculate. Otherwise, it won’t work out.
For my patterns—for which I also don’t have models—I use the standard measurements for children’s and baby sizes (for this, I bought a size chart here at CP that includes all the cm measurements for every size). I haven’t had any complaints about that yet.

I was just trying to explain why the e-books probably don’t include stitch counts.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but to me, it makes perfect sense why there are no stitch counts.

And when you consider all the variables, I find working by measurements works much better… because then it actually fits!

Anyway… I guess everyone feels differently.

A gauge swatch is only useful if you know how to use it, and when using different yarns—the designer uses Yarn A and the customer uses Yarn B—the specifications may no longer match in the worst case. Then you have to recalculate it.  Then the question arises: Does everyone make a gauge swatch? Can they use the gauge swatch to recalculate it to the desired size, dimensions, rows, or stitches?

For me, these are definitely no longer patterns for beginners, and personally, there are just far too many variables that could go wrong.

It’s important to know what size I want to make the garment in, and once the appropriate yarn and needle size are specified, you measure against the person or an existing garment anyway to see if the stitch count works out.
What berlidesign means is that, especially with children, the little ones are often between two sizes, and even among adults, many have in-between sizes—some have thick upper arms, some thin, and so on—so it’s better to use the measurements and then make a suitable garment accordingly. I assume the patterns aren’t labeled “for beginners,” so it’s certainly understandable to write instructions like “make a foundation chain of the appropriate length,” for example, for a cuff. That’s my opinion on this topic. Even if I want to crochet a garment as a gift, surely someone can tell me what size I should crochet.

Hello there :) The pattern includes a table with measurements in case you don’t have a model to measure against. Please use a measuring tape to determine the number of stitches :)
That way, everything can be made completely to your own specifications.
Warm regards,
Jennifer

In other words, here you don’t crochet a set number of stitches for the length, but rather make the “belt” to the required length.

So, thank you very much—now I know exactly how many stitches I’m supposed to cast on.

But today I learned something very important: that all people are different—good to know. Now I’m just wondering how the thousands of patterns and various magazines manage this, and indeed, the entire clothing industry. I’m not a fashion designer myself.
I just wanted to do some crafts. So, as I understand it, I’m supposed to sit down and calculate exactly how big or small I need everything to be. Do I still need a pattern that you sell, then??????

@relevant sellers
Please provide Stricklady with the information she needs, as the patterns and the information here in the thread have not been enough for her so far. Thank you.

They’ve already emailed me. But unfortunately, I’m not good at calculating stitch counts, so I can’t create the pattern myself.  

Everything she needs is specified in the pattern. She only needs the waist measurement, nothing more!
Everything is described in great detail.

I understood that she doesn’t have those measurements, since it’s supposed to be a gift or a surprise.

That’s why there’s a table included that lists ages and waist sizes.

Stricklady,

having to calculate how many stitches you need or how many rows you have to knit is a very common and long-standing practice when it comes to clothing.
You can’t buy patterns for garments that are an exact fit for size X—for people who are heavier, smaller, taller, etc., etc., etc.—especially since the knitter’s technique actually plays a major role in determining whether the garment will fit in the end.
There’s no getting around having to do a gauge swatch and do the math if necessary.

Among other things, I make hand puppets, and my top priority is that the hand puppet fits the hand it’s intended for. I’ve also encountered a lot of criticism over the fact that I don’t specify which brand or weight of yarn to use, or which needle size to choose.  I can’t say, “Exactly this and nothing else…”—and if I did, a lot of people would be justified in being upset if, after spending a long time working on it, they found that the puppet didn’t fit.

The exact same thing applies to garments. Without a gauge swatch, you can’t knit or crochet something that fits a person, unless you’re just making a shawl or scarf.
You should at least know the clothing size of the person you’re giving the gift to, and then you have to do the math… there’s no way around it.

The only thing to ask now is that the pattern designer do the math, but for that, she also needs the clothing size or body measurements…

And I have to add something else. It’s sad for the creators of clothing patterns when a buyer doesn’t understand that she can’t avoid doing the math herself.

Stricklady,
clothing patterns are patterns for ideas, design, shape, construction, and the like—but they aren’t, and can’t be, written to fit every single person down to the exact stitch. That’s not possible.
You have the wrong idea about what a pattern can do.
Take a look at old needlework magazines. You won’t find any such specifications there. It’s just not possible. And even if stitch counts were provided, they could only be approximate—nothing more—because everyone knits or crochets differently, and yarn isn’t always the same.... etc., etc., etc.

Hi michi-h-art-2

It’s not that I can’t do a gauge swatch—when I buy a pattern, I expect it to include a stitch count. Why do I need to buy a pattern if I’m just buying a picture? I can see that in any magazine. What do you expect from a pattern??????

If you would be so kind as to give me the stitch count and convert the row height into centimeters for a child who hasn’t yet reached that size or age. .
 So I don’t have any measurements in cm—whether from the waist to the armpit or from the waist to the knee—and before you write to me saying I can figure that out from other patterns, that’s exactly where we are. Why am I buying these patterns then, when I can’t look at them beforehand to decide whether I want to buy them or not? Kind regards

Stricklady,

what kind of stitch count? Per cm, per dress size, per what????
And even here, doesn’t that stitch count depend on the yarn, the needle, and the individual knitter?

What do you want a stitch count for?

Oh, right, Stricklady,

a PDF pattern simply can’t be viewed beforehand, for very specific reasons. If you don’t agree with the online purchase terms, then you’ll have to go to the store and buy magazines.

Logically, PDF patterns—which can be downloaded in seconds—can’t be viewed before a purchase. That’s just how it is. It’s a matter of technology, modernity, circumstances… and none of that has anything to do with the pattern writer’s intentions.

Either you accept the conditions dictated by circumstances, or you’ll have to find other ways.

Hello mich-h-art-2

Chain 8 stitches ... crochet until the desired length in cm is reached ... and that is the only information I have. Is that really what you think a buyer should work from to make a garment? You sell patterns yourself too. Do yours also say, “Cast on ... stitches and work however you like”? I’ve bought nearly 100 patterns here already, so I do know how to handle e-book patterns. I bought 3 patterns, as described above, because I liked one of them, and then I bought 2 more so I could make the first one and at least have an approximate stitch count. But now I have 3 patterns that only say what I described above, so please read it carefully again. I’m perfectly capable of working patterns, so I don’t need to buy a pattern for that. I also wrote to both of them that they made the items and therefore should have a stitch count and row count, and should have written that down, and every crafter should be able to use that as a guide, right? That is what I understand a pattern you pay for to be, whether in e-book or magazine form.

Stricklady,

if the pattern is structured to cover multiple clothing sizes, then that’s certainly sufficient information.
If a pattern doesn’t explicitly state which clothing sizes it’s intended for, then you have to assume it’s meant to be general and that you’ll have to do the math and take measurements yourself.

Writing “crochet until the desired length is reached” isn’t fundamentally wrong—not at all. The pattern uses different criteria than you’d prefer, but that doesn’t make it fundamentally wrong.

Without measurements or a known clothing size for the person the garment is intended for, a knitting project like this is difficult either way, no matter how precise the pattern is in terms of stitches.

Have you ever knitted garments before? If so, use the measurements you’re familiar with as a guide.
Or perhaps you have one of that person’s sweaters on hand that you can use to take measurements.

In my opinion, there are only two ways to write a garment pattern. Either it’s intended for a specific clothing size, or it’s valid for all or many sizes. In the first case, the number of stitches is specified; in the second, it simply says, “continue until such-and-such is reached.”


 

You’re absolutely right that 8 stitches are enough for you to make something.
I’ve already crocheted and knitted more than enough, so I’m quite capable of making things with yarn.

I personally don’t need any more lectures from you on how to deal with PDFs, gauge, needle sizes, etc.

To make this clear to you as well: I have to buy a pattern that I’m then supposed to make from a picture? I don’t need to pay you sellers for that; I can do that on my own. I assume you make your money from us buyers; otherwise, you wouldn’t be doing this.

 I chose this topic because I was so annoyed, and to let you know how it sometimes comes across: you get upset when you don’t get a review or 5 stars.
 And I didn’t mention a single name in the post, because that’s not my style. But where I come from, there’s a saying: “Hit dogs bark.”

That’s what a gauge swatch is for—you make one before you start crocheting or knitting. Then you can calculate and determine the measurements yourself, especially if you’re using a different type of yarn. But I also find it frustrating when there’s no number of stitches at all. I don’t necessarily need the measurements in centimeters either.