Fur is back in style

I think that’s totally ******
Sorry for the language, but I really thought fur was a thing of the past, at least since PETA ran all those “better naked than in fur” campaigns. 
You see fur on every runway again, and fur accessories are in—on hats, hoods, boots, and everywhere.
Even though it’s often sold as faux fur, it’s not necessarily faux fur, but real fur
because it’s simply cheaper to torture animals on fur farms and skin them than to produce faux fur.
I really don’t think that’s good.
 

Oh yeah, I totally agree with you. I saw a terrible report yesterday about all these clothes trimmed with fur. Supposedly, it’s all fake. Of course! In reality, raccoon dogs, dogs, and cats are being slaughtered for it!

I could puke when I see all those jackets and hats with so-called “fake” fur all over them! I’ve been boycotting that for a long time. No fur on my jacket or hat! You can get by just fine without it! My jacket has neither a fur collar nor a fur-trimmed hood, and it isn’t down-filled either—yet it still keeps me nice and warm.

I’m glad you see it that way, too. I don’t need fur on my jacket either.
I mean, my cats have fur too—if I imagine someone using their fur to trim some kind of hood with a fur collar, then no way. That’s just not okay.
But my cats aren’t allowed outside anyway, because we have the highway—including the on-ramp and off-ramp—right around the corner, so it’s just too dangerous.

It just makes you feel sick when you see pictures and reports from fur farms—what they do to the animals there, or how they drive them to self-mutilation by cramming them into tight cages and then packing so many animals together in such close quarters. That’s a disaster for the animals’ well-being. They don’t get much out of life and are killed relatively early, as soon as they’re big enough for their fur to be reasonably large and “usable.” I’m not sure if it’s a relief that the animals aren’t locked up for so long and don’t have to suffer, but on the other hand, if these fur farms didn’t exist, they wouldn’t have to die so young.

It’s just… you’re simply at a loss for words. Apparently, these farms aren’t just in China, but in Germany too. Illegally, I’ve read online—I have no idea.
I mean, do you really have to have a mink? Well, that’s a silly question—of course you don’t have to have a mink—but some people apparently do need one; where there’s no demand, there’s no supply.

But I mean, this kind of animal cruelty isn’t limited to “luxury” items like fur coats and fur trim—the same principle applies to food, too.
The whole thing somehow reminds me of those brutal images from chicken farms, where the chickens are crammed together so tightly that they develop behavioral disorders, pecking at each other with their beaks and all that. Cutting off their beaks isn’t a solution either.
I don’t remember exactly how it is with cage farming now—whether it’s finally banned—but I don’t really care; I’ve switched to organic eggs. They’re not allowed to use cage farming anyway. Sure, you end up paying 3.60 for 10 eggs, but they taste really good, and you can tell just by the color of the yolks—organic ones aren’t so bright and artificial, but, well, just how eggs are supposed to look. And they’re more substantial, too—they actually fill you up.
I eat a 10-pack of eggs a week, but in exchange I’ve more or less completely stopped eating meat and sausage. Because I’ve reached the point where I don’t want an animal to suffer just because I need a sausage sandwich. But I can’t (yet) go completely without meat. Well, we’ll see.

I’m not sure what they do with the male chicks in organic egg production, though. Supposedly, conventional producers kill them with gas or shred them alive. You just don’t need male chickens for egg production. It works just fine without them.

I recently heard that animal cruelty is now severely punished in the U.S. I don’t know if that will eventually come to Germany as well—in some cases, with prison time for illegal dogfighting and all that.

So, what I actually wanted to say is
that fur farming is only part of the problem. As long as animals are still locked up in cramped cages for our food, fur production on fur farms will likely continue.
If demand were to completely stop, fur farms would quickly go out of business, but oh well.
Discussing human nature and its dark sides doesn’t solve the problem either.


 

Let me quote you:

“Discussing human nature and its dark sides doesn’t solve the problem either.”

You’re absolutely right about that. As with everything, it’s the consumer who holds the power. Last year, Dirk Steffens made a great documentary about why chicken meat is cheaper for humans than, for example, cat and dog food. 
He listed the costs for a chicken raised in a conventional barn and in an organic free-range system, and of course the free-range chicken is a bit more expensive. The care is different, the feed is higher quality, the chicken has access to the outdoors, and it grows more slowly. So it gets to live a little longer before it ultimately ends up as a soup chicken.
But free-range farming just doesn’t work for 99 cents in the end. In that case, the chicken ends up costing 5 or 6 euros. And that brings us back to the consumer, who simply doesn’t want to spend that money.
Another major problem is oversupply. Meat is taken for granted these days. The typical “Sunday roast” no longer exists. 
I remember that when I was a child, eating chicken or roulades was still something special. We actually only had those kinds of things on weekends. And we didn’t have sausage on bread every day either.

Personally, I make sure to buy organic eggs, for example, and get meat only from my trusted butcher; I boycott grilled chicken and don’t wear clothes made with fur (whether labeled as faux fur or not).

And one can only hope that more and more people will become aware of these conditions through TV reports.
As long as supermarkets and discount stores keep waging price wars against each other and consumers keep going along with it, nothing is likely to change.... 

For me, fur is absolutely out of the question. You can totally get by without fur. Nobody needs fur.

well, as far as I’ve understood it, though of course I don’t know everything
food for the body is not just a supply of nutrients, but also information.
When a lot of sugar comes in, the body interprets that as a signal that it should put it into storage, meaning build up body fat.
In the past, for example, people used to say fruit is super healthy and you should always eat it, etc. These days you read more and more of the opposite, because fructose is still sugar, and as soon as sugar comes in, it signals the liver to put it straight into storage, and then you’re hungry again. I read that recently in a pharmacy magazine; they say that of the 5 portions of fruit and vegetables per day, only one should be fruit, and the rest vegetables. But who actually does that? Very few people eat that much fruit, and not vegetables either
Kids are supposedly totally crazy about sugar because it’s evolutionary, because sugar signals that the food contains a lot of energy, and they still have to grow. But sugar has now become what fat used to be before people started dividing it into good and bad fat. Very, very bad.
well. back to the topic.

so what I wanted to say with that, even if the stuff above doesn’t really fit the topic
Food is information for the body
Food is an important part of maintaining health and preserving quality of life.
So maybe you should think again about whether you really always need an expensive phone, or whether you might rather “invest” the money in good food, because you get more out of it, for example long-term health.
Then things like the example you mentioned with the factory-farmed chicken that you can get cheap, cheap on your plate or in your soup would no longer be an issue, because nobody would eat it anymore.
Where there’s no demand, there’s no supply, and that’s that.

If you regularly eat organic, then you basically have no choice but to go back to the classic Sunday roast, or rather to eating little meat, otherwise you’ll go broke. But then again, red meat and processed meat are unhealthy anyway. I think I’ve read too many nutrition articles. :)

but to get back to the topic of fur
I think it’s incredibly important to have as much control as possible over your own clothing, and especially over children’s clothing, not only because of the chemicals in clothing, which are supposedly there to prevent mold during transport, dyes, wrinkle protection, etc. etc., but also because of the fur trims.
Children are much more sensitive than adults when it comes to things like chemicals in clothing
and that’s exactly why I think it’s important to find ways to make clothing yourself
and that makes a DIY forum like this one a good thing.
There are patterns for sweaters, jackets, etc.
you can make it all yourself if you have the talent for it.
then you have full control over the material, the cut, the working conditions, etc. etc.
and then there’s guaranteed to be no fur on it, neither real nor imitation.

Personally, I can’t really sew, but then again, for people like me there are second-hand shops, where at least you know you’re conserving resources.


Basically, it’s true that people way back in the past, the Stone Age and all that, had nothing else and therefore had to dress in fur and animal hides, meaning leather.
but I mean, nowadays nobody has to do that anymore
there are plenty of materials that don’t come from animals, or at least weren’t “produced” under such bad conditions

how does that actually work with leather? Leather is animal skin
well, in theory, there’s also faux leather. But I assume that a whole lot of chemicals are used there too.
but well, you do need shoes too, even though of course there are lots of materials for shoes, so basically you don’t need leather either

so, it’s really something else: once you start thinking about organic, eco-friendly, conserving resources, animal-friendliness, environmental friendliness, chemicals and all that, it just keeps spreading into more and more areas.

but that’s exactly why I think it’s especially important that this discussion is taking place in a DIY forum, because here you might also reach people who are open to this kind of thing
in a forum about status symbols, phones, smartphones, cars, etc., you wouldn’t even need to start on this topic; nobody there would care. Fur is a status symbol too, unfortunately.
then people should just buy another phone as a status symbol instead, and not buy fur
Problem solved :)
well, it’s probably not that simple ;)

but seriously
what message are you actually sending with a fur coat or a fur collar?
I’ve made it in life? enough money in the bank? married rich?
I don’t know much about that, because I don’t know many people with fur coats, or rather, I don’t know them well.
and you shouldn’t just judge people by their appearance, because people may be completely different on the inside from how they look on the outside.
look here
https://www.dein-pelz.de/de/8/pelz-fell-maentel
so lambskin coats really are “cheap”
they’re probably nice and warm
but I assume that opponents of fur are more interested in sable and less in lamb.
so, I’ve never been interested in what something like that costs
I’m actually surprised now that it can be had relatively inexpensively
I would have thought it would start at 1000 or 2000
after all, it’s the fur of animals that have to be fed and housed
and when they’re dead, the fur still has to be treated and processed
oh, right, those are used furs
well then, because I just read it, slight signs of wear and so on.
so, I mean, the furs look cozy and all.
and one can only hope that the animals were treated well while they were alive
and second hand is actually a good thing. I mean, the animals have already been dead for ages, and throwing away a fur coat as long as it’s still “good” and you can still give it away or sell it isn’t a solution either.
well, no idea, people are making money with it and other people absolutely want to buy it.
yeah.

 

It’s never gone out of style. Especially when our fashion guru K.L. shows his next winter collection, we’re convinced that fur is okay for us, too. I enjoy working with fur at home and making little things that I then wear or use as home decor. It always depends on where the fur comes from.

@muetzekatze, male chicks are also killed by many organic producers. While there are now some organic farms where male chicks are raised alongside the females, they too are sooner or later processed into meat, just like their sisters.
If you want to be truly consistent, go organic and vegan—there are plenty of organic alternatives to animal products these days.

You’re so right. Actually, it’s not generally about fur or animal skins—it’s about our attitude toward life, about consciously experiencing our surroundings. A coworker (a former baker) recently told me what they mix into baked goods—it’s unimaginable. That’s why eating vegetables from my garden, heating with wood from my neighbor’s forest, and exercising in nature are important to me. What bothers me is that the production of faux fur is linked to opaque manufacturing practices—there are some processes here that I just can’t wrap my head around. From what I’ve heard, producing it is far more harmful to wildlife than obtaining real fur. But this is kept under wraps—even by all the activists.

@hase02, I actually wanted to ignore your first post, but you proved me right, and I can’t accept that. You didn’t understand a thing! That’s understandable, though—what I wrote was aimed at people capable of thinking.
Wearing fur is absolutely the lowest form of human ignorance. Justifying it by saying it’s better for animals than producing faux fur is… well, actually to be expected from someone who calls K.L. his tsar.

Hi everyone,

this is an interesting discussion that actually goes far beyond just wearing fur. In my opinion, the whole issue has to do with people’s respect for animals and nature. Most people simply don’t have that respect—or even that knowledge—anymore.
@InnasVorlagenshop: I think you’re oversimplifying things a bit when you say, “Wearing fur is the lowest form of human ignorance.” What’s wrong with using the fur or leather from farm animals—like sheep, cattle, and rabbits—for shoes or clothing, provided they’ve been well cared for? I remember that my parents used to make sleeping bags for us kids out of the fur of rabbits and sheep that we raised ourselves. There’s nothing wrong with that. But breeding animals—such as minks, sables, etc.—on farms solely for their fur is disrespectful, in my opinion, since it’s all about profit. But humans don’t even have respect for their own kind—just look at the refugee crisis. First, we exploit these countries and instigate wars there, and then, when the people there have no future prospects left and come to us, we shut the doors in their faces.   

@Miki74, you’re talking about “livestock,” and that’s actually where the problem starts: Who gives us humans the right to exploit animals? There are also people in this world who are exploited—they’re called slaves. These days, I don’t think anyone would dare to say publicly that slavery is okay, but when it comes to animals, it’s okay? Where’s the difference?

@InnasVorlagenshop

The scriptures clearly state that animals are subordinate to humans and that humans are permitted to keep and use animals—and also eat some of them. But humans are responsible for these animals, and how they are treated is also explicitly defined. For example, animals must not be slaughtered without any need for meat or other animal products, they must not be tortured, and they must be properly cared for and housed. And there are other points that contain specific instructions for the treatment of animals.

     On the other hand, I’d be curious to know how you envision a world in which humans no longer keep animals and no longer use their products—such as eggs, milk, and honey—as food.
 

@Miki74
The writings (whichever ones you mean) were written by humans, and humans are simply not infallible.
In Germany alone, there are 900,000 vegans - that is, people who completely avoid animal products.
A vegan lifestyle is not only the most animal-friendly, but also the most human-friendly and the most environmentally friendly of all.
If you're really interested in this topic, you'll find plenty of information and statistics about it on the Internet.

@Innas Vorlagenshop
Didn’t God give people commandments to show them the way?
And who forbade killing animals for food and also forbade using their products?
But even if you don’t believe in God or in what is written, that still doesn’t answer my question.
How do you imagine the whole world going vegan? 900,000 vegans in Germany out of over 80 million people is not much. And what would happen to all the animals that are there already???? And what about other pets like dogs, cats, etc.—what is supposed to happen to them?
And what happens in regions of the world where there is no alternative but to keep livestock and live off that?
And what about the silk industry, just to name one example—what happens to that? Abolish it all?
I’m not against a plant-based diet, quite the opposite. But if all of humanity is supposed to do it, then you’ll have to give me some solutions.          

As interesting as the topic is, it is also sprawling. As long as some people publicly put their fellow human beings into pigeonholes and label them as such, I've lost my desire to discuss it. Have fun discussing it, everyone.

@Miki74
I'll start with the last question:

"Only if all of humanity is supposed to do it, you'll have to give me solutions."
No, I don't have to.
You're asking me questions as if I were planning to change the world tomorrow and were now asking you for your consent. Neither one of us will decide what the world looks like tomorrow, so I don't have to find solutions for the world and you don't have to approve them—that's what I just wanted to make clear again to avoid
misunderstandings…

So, now the remaining questions:

"How do you imagine the whole world being vegan?"
I don't.

"900,000 vegans in Germany out of over 80 million people isn't much."
That's true. With that number, my only point was that there are already quite a lot of people who live that way, so it works.

"And where would all the animals that are there go????"
Nowhere; not everyone is going to become vegan overnight. The fewer people use animals, the fewer farm animals will be bred—it's actually that simple.

"And the other pets like dogs, cats, etc., what is supposed to happen to them?"
Are they being milked or slaughtered?

"And what happens in the regions of the world where there is no other alternative than to keep farm animals and live off them?"
Presumably they will go on living as they have until now.

"And what about the silk industry, just to name one example, what happens to that? Abolish everything?"
That's very simple too—the less people buy, the less will be produced.

All clear?

But I really would recommend that you use the internet to gather information, unless you actually don't want to know anything.

@ InnasVorlagenshop

Without getting into your comments above on the topic—and while it could certainly be interesting to discuss it—how did you come to accuse me, yet again, of having no knowledge on this subject and of wanting to look it up online?
What leads you to assume that I haven’t done my research? The fact that I have a certain perspective on this topic?
This insinuation—and the way you phrased it—is disrespectful in my eyes.
As unfortunate as that is for the topic, as far as I’m concerned, our discussion is over at this point.

@ InnasVorlagenshop

regarding my wording mistake: I meant “the other point of view.”

@Miki74
Your questions lead me to this conclusion.
It’s not a problem for me that you have a different point of view, but if, instead of arguing objectively, you quote the scriptures, I can’t assume that you’ve informed yourself.
And you didn’t really engage in a discussion—you just asked questions. My advice to look it up online wasn’t meant to be disrespectful—it was purely factual: Why do you want me to give you the answers when you have the entire internet at your disposal?
But it’s okay—let’s just end this.